Early Fox SW 16 gauge with 30" tubes...sweet

[SXS ohio]

I have received the long awaited delivery of Fox SW number 350559. Its in high original condition, non-ejector, bright perfect bores and tips the scale at exactly 5lbs-11-1/2 oz . I just wish it had a bit more choke in the left barrel, its .026 Full. I really wanted it to be tighter like .031 or x-full. This gun has the early for end latch that is a bit hard to dismount, just like is reported in the Mackintosh book on Fox. Its stocked very nicely 1 3/8 X 2 3/4 X 14 I can shoot this one as it is...(-: When the weather gets nice I will pattern it and compare it to my CSMC Fox 16 that is choked .031 and see how they differ??/ thanks all SXS Ohio I will take some pictures soon as possible....the gun is still listed on G.I. Conn. shotgun under Fox graded guns page 2 its the only 30" one they have listed.

[bbman3]

Sounds like a great 16 and very lightweight! Bobby

[vaturkey]

That would be by far the lightest 16 gauge I've ever seen. I had one weight 5 lb 10 ounces, but it had 26" barrels. Must have 4 weight barrels. To be on the safe side I'd have the barrel wall thickness checked. I've got a 30 Sterly 16 gauge ejector and it weighs 6 lb 4 ounces.

[jolly bill]

SXS ohio,

I'm pretty sure that's the early 16 gauge Sterlingworth with 30" tubes that Tony had at Las Vegas in January.

The tag on the gun was marked SOLD. Yes, it is a very nice gun and if it wasn't marked SOLD, it would have gone home with a recently retired DVM and PGCA collector in Oregon. He left a standing offer with Tony in case the Sale wasn't completed.

Tony also had another extra nice 16 gauge Sterlingworth for a couple hundred bucks less. More condition but 28" barrels. It was a Utica gun with many Philly features: fore end wood and top lever shape.

And you mentioned: "This gun has the early for end latch that is a bit hard to dismount, just like is reported in the Mackintosh book on Fox. "

You, and others with those tight fore ends, might want to consider The Dean Romig Fore End Removal Tool.

I have an early Model 1911 Sterligworth Pin gun with that difficulty. I bought one of Dean's tools and recommend it very highly. He has a pictorial presentation on the members side of the PGCA forum to see how slick it works.

I have mine pictured below. (You might wonder what that cotton line is with the metal ferrule at each end. For those that went thru the U. S. Navy boot camp you will recognize it. For those that don't, that is a USN cloths pin. In boot camp you tied your laundry to the clothes line with these. Just in case you wanted to know.)

And here is Dean's explanation:
"This tool is made of flexible nylon and should not mar the wood if used properly. It will easily and smoothly remove the forend from Parker Trojans, Fox Sterlingworth, L.C. Smith Field Grade, Ithaca Nitro Special, Ithaca Flues and probably any other SXS shotgun with the snap on forend.
No prying necessary - Simply slide the tool flat along the barrels directing tip under forend and the forend will easily pop off.
Best of all, no more chipped or cracked fore end tips."

Send me a PM and I can give you more info.

I hope I'm not violating any rules by promoting Dean's Tool. (Fore end tool that is!)

Jolly

[OH Osthaus]

I'll second the recommendation of Dean's tool

I got one right after I got my 1911 pin gun

[foxgun]

Just looked at the pictures on GI. That's a nice one for sure, SXS! I have a 16ga A that I got from a member here. 28" IC/M in about the same condition and weighs 5lb 12oz, min wall thickness .031/.032. 1 1/2" x 2 1/2"x 14. It's great to carry all day, fits me just perfect and choked just right for quail here.
I have a 30" straight grip Sterlingworth 16ga, same dimensions, choked .015/.025 and I shoot that gun about as well as anything I have. Also have a Win 21 16ga 30", a very nice gun and I love the 30" barrels, but of course it is heavier than the Fox guns.
Enjoy your new addition.
Best
Tim

[SXS ohio]

Thanks Guys...and yes this gun was at the shows, I called and agreed to buy it not knowing it was not going to ship for over a month......When the gun did not come I called Lou and found out what was going on, Lou said he could have sold it many times, guess he told the truth...Lou is a great guy to deal with, he promised me that gun and now I have it...thanks Lou.

[bbman3]

On tight forends I use half a wooden clothespin with plastic electrical tape on it. Bobby

[Stan Hillis]

I agree about Lou being a stand-up guy. Having known him for several years I feel he can be trusted completely. And, as an aside, he has a memory that I could only wish to have. He forgets nothing!!

16 gauges with 30" barrels are indeed sweet. I will be posting some photos of my AE soon.

SRH

[SXS ohio]

I got out for a round of clays at our club with my new to me SW-30" SWEEEEET....Its one of the best guns I have bought! It is stocked a smidge low but I shoot her good by just setting the target on the front bead covering about 1/2 of it. My go to dimensions are 1 1/4 x 2 1/4 x 14 1/4 this gun is close at 1 3/8 x 2 3/4 x 14 It shoots just a tad low for my normal sight picture so I must almost cover the target and they turn to dust! It was a chilly day and I was shooting with a medium weight sporting clays coat and shooting vest so the length of pull was fine. I plan to use this gun for wild roosters out west and will send her out to Brad Batchelder to have the chamber and cones cut to 2 3/4 as it is a 2 5/8 chambers being built in early 1913. Brad will inspect the barrels, measure the walls before doing any work on the chambers. When shooting field loads it helps to have the chambers opened, gun will produce less recoil on the shooter and the guns old wood. After the gun returns from Brads I will do some shooting for patterns....SXS Ohio

[Researcher]

IMHO, if the gun has survived in such nice condition to this point in time, I'd leave the chambers just as they left North 18th Street & Windrim Avenue, and shoot 2 1/2 inch RSTs. In theory, the gun should have 2 7/16 inch chambers intended for the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shells "standard" in North America until the mid-1930s, and still offered by our ammunition companies into the 1960s.

[vaturkey]

IMHO, if the gun has survived in such nice condition to this point in time, I'd leave the chambers just as they left North 18th Street & Windrim Avenue, and shoot 2 1/2 inch RSTs. In theory, the gun should have 2 7/16 inch chambers intended for the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shells "standard" in North America until the mid-1930s, and still offered by our ammunition companies into the 1960s.

I agree but I do have a question in this regard. I ordered a factory card (2006xx) (20 gauge) and it specify's chamber for 2 3/4" shells. Were 2 3/4" shells common in 1914? Also, what specifically would Fox have done to meet that request? Would they have just reamed the chambers out to 2 3/4" or was something else done?

PS. Just curious, because I've always felt chambers should be left the way they were when they left the factory, but in this case the individual specifically asked for longer chambers well over 100 years ago.

[Researcher]

Paper Shot Shell Lengths

In reviewing old Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogues and price lists, the first time I see mention of extra length paper shot shell cases is in the 1880 catalogue, before they were even offering loaded shot shells. Smokeless powder loaded shot shells begin appearing in the 1891 catalogue. While the “standard” 12-gauge shells were in 2 5/8 or 2 3/4 inch lengths, the “standard” 16-gauge was 2 9/16 inch and the “standard” 20-gauge was 2 1/2 inch, paper 12-gauge shells were offered in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch lengths; 16-gauge shells in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths; and 20-gauge shells in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths.

From the 1890s into the early 1920s, these longer shot shells didn't carry a heavier payload than one could get in a 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shell, just more/better wadding, which many serious Pigeon shooters believed to be an advantage. The maximum smokeless powder loads offered in the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shell and the 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell were a bit lighter than those offered in 2 ¾ inch and longer shells. Early on, one could get smokeless powder 12-gauge loads as heavy as 3 1/4 drams pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot in a 2 5/8 inch paper shell. Between 1906 and 1910 our manufacturers phased out the 1 1/4 ounce loads in the 2 5/8 inch shell. By 1910 the 2 5/8 inch paper shell was only being offered with 1 1/8 or lighter payloads, and one needed to go to the 2 3/4 inch or longer shells for 1 1/4 ounce loads. In the 2 ¾ inch or longer 12-gauge cases one could get 3 ½ drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 ¼ ounce of shot. According to some DuPont powder booklets in my collection, these loads are a bit higher pressure then modern SAAMI specs for 2 ¾ and 3-inch 12-gauge shells!!

In the 20-gauge, the heaviest loads offered in the 2 ½ inch shell were 2 ¼ drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 7/8 ounce of shot.

ARROW 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge 2 1/4 Dram

In the longer 2 ¾, 2 7/8 and 3-inch shells one could get 2 ½ drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing that same 7/8 ounce of shot.

ARROW 3-inch 20-gauge, 20-grains Ballistite

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. From the 1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue --

[Researcher]

My 20-gauge, 30-inch barrel, AE-Grade, that was shipped in 1920, letters as being ordered chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells, and as was the practice, the chambers do in fact measure 2 5/8 inch. An eighth inch shorter then the intended shell.

Some years back, I searched the graded 20-gauge records for guns ordered for the long shells, 2 7/8 and 3-inch, and found 47 in the first 2000 or so serial numbers before the 20-gauge HE-Grade Super-Fox guns began appearing. Seven guns were ordered chambered for 2 7/8 inch shells and forty for 3-inch shells. Of the 47 guns, two had 26-inch barrels, 19 28-inch barrels, 19 30-inch barrels and seven 32-inch barrels. A few were pretty light at 5 pounds 11 ounces, 5 pounds 12 ounces, 5 pounds 14 ounces and 5 pounds 15 ounces.

Of the sixty some 20-gauge HE-Grade Super-Fox guns, only three are listed as being ordered for 3-inch shells.

Long chambers were pretty scarce in graded 16-gauge guns, with one gun ordered for 2 7/8 inch shells and nine ordered for 3-inch shells.

[vaturkey]

Here's the back of my card. Really interesting: