This year there will be a distinguished guest speaker for the Virginia Vintagers' Reception which will take place at The Flame Steak House in Sanford, NC on Friday night, the 27th of April, 2012. The speaker will be Walter C. Snyder, the renowned shotgun expert who wrote the seminal text, The Ithaca Gun Company - from the Beginning. Walter is an engineer by training, a life long side-by-side enthusiast and an avid Ithaca collector.
It has long occurred to me that a cogent argument can be made for the proposition that the Ithaca Flues was one of the premiere boxlock shotguns of all time. The simplicity of the mechanical design was a stroke of genius. Certainly the Ithaca Flues continues to hold the record for the fastest lock time. Aesthetically Ithaca side-by-sides’ external design provided much surface for engraving. The art nouveau acanthus leaves depicted on Ithaca Flues 1.5 grades early in the 20th century are my personal all time favorites.
It should be a treat to hear Walter Snyder at the Virginia Vintagers event on Friday.
J.K.B. von Falkenhorst
Walter Snyder to Address Va. Vintagers at Southern
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Falkenhorst
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Silvers
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Re: Walter Snyder to Address Va. Vintagers at Southern
Certainly Mr. Snyder is THE Ithaca expert and has done very much to advance our current knowledge of these fine classic guns. I'm sure his comments at the event you referred to, will be an exceptional treat and add much to the Reception.
Now to your "cogent" argument that the Ithaca Flues was one of the premiere boxlocks. I assume you are using that word as in "convincing". Sorry, but I have a different opinion. I've owned and used a number of Flues model guns. IMO the Flues is a reliable classic design, but its time was past when progressive burning powders and hunters' demand for heavier shot charges, both came on the scene. Unfortunately the mill cuts on the inside of the Flues frame to permit movement of the hammer arms, weakened the frame and especially so in the smallbores. Net, the Ithaca Gun Company was forced to introduce its NID Model which IMO was a much better design. This forced evolution to the Ithaca NID compares with the opposite scenario with two excellent American hammerless boxlocks, i.e, Parker and Fox, both of which remained largely the same design since introduced, and until repeaters, the Depression, and post war market finally tipped over the apple cart for SxS guns. Lastly, much was and is made of its Cornell U measured Lightning Lock and I'm sure such technical advertising/marketing prose was impactful back in the day, but the fact is that the lock time of all classic doubles can only be measured in microseconds, with ~ nil difference in actual performance as compared with other models by competing makers. Barrel time accounts for a far greater delay than lock time insofar as the shot leaving the gun. All this is written here so readers may consider the other side of the coin.
Thank you for your comments but I've added the foregoing as an alternate perspective. Frank Silvers
Now to your "cogent" argument that the Ithaca Flues was one of the premiere boxlocks. I assume you are using that word as in "convincing". Sorry, but I have a different opinion. I've owned and used a number of Flues model guns. IMO the Flues is a reliable classic design, but its time was past when progressive burning powders and hunters' demand for heavier shot charges, both came on the scene. Unfortunately the mill cuts on the inside of the Flues frame to permit movement of the hammer arms, weakened the frame and especially so in the smallbores. Net, the Ithaca Gun Company was forced to introduce its NID Model which IMO was a much better design. This forced evolution to the Ithaca NID compares with the opposite scenario with two excellent American hammerless boxlocks, i.e, Parker and Fox, both of which remained largely the same design since introduced, and until repeaters, the Depression, and post war market finally tipped over the apple cart for SxS guns. Lastly, much was and is made of its Cornell U measured Lightning Lock and I'm sure such technical advertising/marketing prose was impactful back in the day, but the fact is that the lock time of all classic doubles can only be measured in microseconds, with ~ nil difference in actual performance as compared with other models by competing makers. Barrel time accounts for a far greater delay than lock time insofar as the shot leaving the gun. All this is written here so readers may consider the other side of the coin.
Thank you for your comments but I've added the foregoing as an alternate perspective. Frank Silvers
Last edited by Silvers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TOOL MAN
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Re: Walter Snyder to Address Va. Vintagers at Southern
A fine rebut as always Sen. Silvers but allow me a tertiary interjection.
Best to tread lightly J.K.B. v. F. for that proclamation sounds as if the viscount just half-cocked his flintlock, here in the veritable domicile of reliable boxlocks!!
While I'll not refute that Emile ( a.k.a. The Bay City Roller) was a gifted designer, I do believe he still owes Franky Knickerbocker several cases of Utica Club for bailing his derriere out, with the subsequent arrival of the "Knick" model.
PS----Wondeful news regarding Mr. Snyder delivering the keynote address. I'm sure he will add some starch to your PLUS-FOURS!!!
Adolph P. Roll III
Best to tread lightly J.K.B. v. F. for that proclamation sounds as if the viscount just half-cocked his flintlock, here in the veritable domicile of reliable boxlocks!!
While I'll not refute that Emile ( a.k.a. The Bay City Roller) was a gifted designer, I do believe he still owes Franky Knickerbocker several cases of Utica Club for bailing his derriere out, with the subsequent arrival of the "Knick" model.
PS----Wondeful news regarding Mr. Snyder delivering the keynote address. I'm sure he will add some starch to your PLUS-FOURS!!!
Adolph P. Roll III
On the whole....I'd rather be in Philadelphia....
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Falkenhorst
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Re: Walter Snyder to Address Va. Vintagers at Southern
The significance of short lock time is, indeed, debatable. It is true that the most accomplished shooters can crush targets and bring down game with just about any smoothbore. However, there is no question that the shorter the hammer travel the more mechanically efficient the design. Furthermore, helical springs are particularly durable and practical. These are among the Flues advanced features.
The Ithaca Flues, like the London “best” shotguns, have been upbraided for frailty. However, neither design was intended for 3.5 inch magnum shells or their equivalent. These are essentially upland bird guns characterized by light weight and superb balance. They can also effectively break clay targets with appropriate loads. We now know that more is not necessarily better when it comes to shot loads. Thus, it can be argued that the Ithaca Flues design was ahead of its time. The folks who decried the Flues structural “weakness” were often the same sportsmen who used their shotguns as jack stands for repairing their tin Lizzies.
There is evidence that Ithaca replaced the Flues in their product line because its successor was less expensive to manufacture, while the refinements of the Flues design were not indispensable for most shooters.
Needless to say, recognizing the unique virtues of the Ithaca Flues does not diminish my affection for my Fox, my Parkers or my venerable sidelock Smiths.
J.K.B. von Falkenhorst
The Ithaca Flues, like the London “best” shotguns, have been upbraided for frailty. However, neither design was intended for 3.5 inch magnum shells or their equivalent. These are essentially upland bird guns characterized by light weight and superb balance. They can also effectively break clay targets with appropriate loads. We now know that more is not necessarily better when it comes to shot loads. Thus, it can be argued that the Ithaca Flues design was ahead of its time. The folks who decried the Flues structural “weakness” were often the same sportsmen who used their shotguns as jack stands for repairing their tin Lizzies.
There is evidence that Ithaca replaced the Flues in their product line because its successor was less expensive to manufacture, while the refinements of the Flues design were not indispensable for most shooters.
Needless to say, recognizing the unique virtues of the Ithaca Flues does not diminish my affection for my Fox, my Parkers or my venerable sidelock Smiths.
J.K.B. von Falkenhorst