Fox Collectors

Gentlemen, may I ask a question?

I'm a devout lurker/learner here and at Doublegunshop, but you've never heard from me because I've had nothing substantive to offer, and I've mostly resisted the urge to add drivel to any of the threads.

But now, I'm hot-to-trot over a Utica 20 ga. Sterlingworth on the internet. It has a couple of issues that will prevent it from being a valuable collecter gun, but it could be a nice grouse gun, which is what I'm after.

The seller states the bbl. lengths as 25 7/8". He claims not to have a choke guage, but does agree that the bbls. may very well have been cut. In the pictures, they don't look cut to me, as in there are no obvious hack marks.

I seem to recall a discussion, (I couldn't find it either here or at Doublegunshop), in which several, or many, uncut Fox bbls. measured 1/8" shorter than the stated length. Am I just thinking wishfully, or could I be correct?

There's one more question I'm embarrassed to ask. I don't feel like I know enough to make a good purchase on a Sterlingworth and have been just dying to post the link here and ask your learned opinions. But, (and here's the embarrassing part) I'm paranoid that I'd be introducing the ad to better people with deeper pockets, and I'd lose in the bidding. I know that's no way to treat a group of experts, but I'm kind of young and dumb! Has that ever happened, or am I just being silly?

After all my song-and-dance, this gun is probably beneath you guys anyway

Thank you very much for any help!

Jeff Loth

Here is the topic that covers some of your questions.
http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... .php?t=846

In the 44 years since my father bought me my first Fox gun (a 26" 16g Phila. SW) I have owned and handled hundreds of Foxes. Virtually all of these had exact barrel lengths. If this gun began life with 26" barrels and had some muzzle damage perhaps an 1/8" was lopped off to true them up. I have a XE 20ga that suffered the same fate under my ownership. Lack of hack saw marks is not determinative. Cut muzzles can be finished off with sandpaper very easily. If the keels are in place and the chokes are full length the gun is probably OK. Good Luck

JEFFL,

First things first.....make sure this guy's tape rule says STANLEY....if not,
repeat the measurement.

TOOLMAN

Men,

Aha! I found the thread I was referring to...

http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... .php?t=834

I can't say that it gives me the answers I'm looking for, it may just be leading me further into trouble.

Many thanks to those of you who've responded in the little time I've allowed my question to sit!

I'm too paranoid, I've decided, and I'd hate to hassle with returning a gun, so I ask you, please, do you have an opinion (which I'd never hold anyone to) as to whether these barrels have been cut?

I do understand that you probably cannot know for sure without measuring the length of the choke, I'm just wondering if anything leaps out at you.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =107779506

Thanks again,

Jeff Loth

From the picture I can't tell but I do not see any keys. I would hold off there are many 20 ga Sterlingworth always coming on the market without problems. Hold off for a better gun in my opinion.

They look cut to me with no evidence of "keels" (small triangular pieces of steel set in the solder at the muzzles)

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Jeff,
I will throw out a couple of things that are of the exact value of what you paid for them (same as guns)

First, If it is on-line the serious buyer here have seen the gun so don't be shy.
Second, from the look of th barrels they have been cut from 28 or even 30 inches.

If you want a grouse gun that is no issue, if you want a 26 inch upland gun Mike Orlen or any competent barrel smith and put chokes in 95% of the guns we see. The process is call jug choking.

It seems to be a nice looking gun.. I wouldn't buy the gun for resale but if you want a hunter/shooter this would be a candidate at around $1000 if it is in your current budget range.

Good Luck

If there were any way I could find out whether that gun had factory choke in it, it would be in my safe by next week. Once the gun was off the gunbroker site, I would probably mail that fellow a choke micrometer along with a short stack of hundreds. Nice gun if it is not cut. But he "doesn't own a choke gauge" like about 99% of people in the gun business. To be realistic, it does have a repaired forend and the barrels don't really look like they have 90% blue like the description says. The potential value of the gun is all in the originality of the barrels.

Again, thank you for your excellent responses.

Birdawg, I rather liked the notion of replacing a butt pad, or of even a bit of minor woodcraft on the forend, but I just cannot get the warm fuzzies over cut barrels (I can trace that emotion back to the age of 9). I understand damage can happen, leaving little alternative, but to do so for a change of choke or swing has always bothered me a bit. I do not mean to offend anyone here who has cut a barrel!

Mr. Murphy, I'll take that to mean you're not going to buy it to find out...

Thank you all,

Jeff Loth

I'd say for your first Fox to hold off and keep looking. save your money and be ready to jump on a nice condition one when it pop's up. This gun has to many "what ifs" to it for a first time buyer and I'd sure hate to see you get jaded right out the door. I suspect this gun will surface again some day. The high bidder right now is a dealer that knows how to fix up a Fox like this and then resale it.

Always keep this bit of advice in mind. When buying a double gun always buy the barrels first and the rest of the gun second. What this translates to is the barrels are the heart of the gun and if they aren't good the rest of the gun is just parts. Barrel work can be very expensive and that's only if they can be repaired.

Jeff, The current auction on the gun in question is the third time it has been up for bid ( started @1800 reserve).I asked the seller if I could look at the gun before bidding (I'm only 20 min. away) and he said I could. Upon further study of the photos, it's my guess that on the muzzle end of the barrels, what we have there is JB Weld or Devcon. A round of skeet on a hot day will melt that stuff right out of there. I've seen this done before. The pin in the fore end was another minus. I also doubt that the 90% bluing claim is even close to the mark. When I saw that some one bid over $1100 on it, I lost interest and didn't bother going to see it. Good move on your part, asking questions before jumping in. Be patient, you ( and I) will find a solid 20 sooner or later.FRED

Well, there you have it. More sage advice from FRBRIT, and then FRED comes in with the slam dunk! When I was first thinking about posting for advice here, I thought, "Wouldn't it be great if someone out there actually KNOWS this gun?" For all my other shortcomings, I do seem to get lucky from time to time by associating with the right folks!

Again, thanks to all of you gentlemen for your advice. I hope you have enjoyed it, because it has been such a positive experience for me that I'll probably try it again on the next internet gun I get fired up about. Or, if I find one locally, I'll post a show-and-tell. There are a couple of 16's at a gunshop in Charlottesville I'm gonna go fondle again (I did so about 6 months ago). I think there's a cheap (<$1k) one that is a bit loose, and a $1400 one which I don't remember the condition of.

I'm really not in a rush. In fact, I'm having such a good time searching and learning that I'm afraid finally picking one will put an end to the fun! I guess that's how some of you guys have become collectors.

I've always given thought to joining to Fox Collectors Association, but modesty has always told me maybe I ought to own a Fox first!

Thanks all,

Jeff Loth

Hello Jeff, I hadn't answered before now because of being pretty busy this week. You got some excellent advice. A couple of suggestions: First to join up to the AHFCA even though you don't own a Fox gun right now. AHFCA members can post guns for sale or wanted in the Members Only Forum and you may find a gun there from another member who is "known" to the rest of us and will tell you straight up what's right/wrong with the gun. Many of the members have developed friendships through email conversations, and that in turn can get you help without posting on a public forum. Members Only forum appears on your screen if you are a paid member and you sign in. Second suggestion - I see you are in VA. Consider driving up to the Vintage Cup to meet the AHFCA officers and other members who will be there. Also, there are always tons of double gun vendors displaying their stock and you can get some expert, real time advice on a Fox you might like that's sitting on a table. Details on the Vintage Cup are posted here on other threads. Silvers