Fox Collectors

the BBS and the Fox Collectors's Association. Or at least I just put the application and check in the mail.

I live in Amarillo, Texas and collect old doubles, primarily sixteens. I quail hunt all I can and have three bird dogs and I also field trial a little bit (National Shoot to Retrieves Association). My dogs are French Brittanys.

I have some Parkers, Ithacas, Lefevers, some English guns, some German guns. Some of them are hammer guns.

I dumbed into a deal on a Fox XE 16 a week ago and lucked into a really nice original gun. This is my first Fox although I have been admiring and studying them for several weeks.

The gun was made in 1921, has 30" Chromox Steel Barrels with 2-1/2" chambers. The chokes are 0.019" and 0.020". Double Triggers. The bores are 0.659". The minimum wall thickness 0.0.045". The gun weighs 6lbs - 6oz. There is better than 50% case, 95% blue, checkering is great and stock finish is great. Bores are clear, not even frosting, which initially made me suspicious. The chokes are 4-1/4" and 3-5/8" long with a 1" parallel at the muzzle end. They are well polished - so they might be factory?

The stock dimensions are 14-3/8 x 1-9/16 x 2-5/8 over a Paul Jaeger pad - I guess the pad is from the fifties.

I will see if I can post some pictures here:















































































I probably over did the pictures but I am really excited about the gun. It just knocks my eyes out and I am so lucky to wind up with it. If it is problem let me know and I will delete them.

Here is a link to my Photobucket site. You are welcome to look around. If you drill down in the "Fox XE" folder there is another folder that is marked "originals" and has unedited 3 meg pictures in it.

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/ ... ?start=all

Best,

Mike

Interesting example with the rebates for the head of the stock, but no lock screw on the top-tang screw and the breech balls not profiled to the barrels. Really a crap shoot on these XE-Grades with which features some have and some don't. Setting the bar mighty high to begin with a Fox like that!! Congrats!!!

Did you see the XE 16 on the Julia Auction? The frame wasn't rebated and the checkering patterns were different than the few other I have seen.

Best,

Mike

There seems to be at least three XE-style checkering patterns -- the early style like on this gun with the ribbons through the checkering panels -- http://www.foxcollectors.com/x%20grade%201916.htm

The later style like yours and mine, and the pattern pictured in the catalogues which I never see in real life!!

Here are the profiled breech balls on my 1923 or 4 big 32-inch 12-gauge 1-weight boomer. It also has the lock screw.

Your are a lucky man. I have seen two 12ga XE's both made in 1921 that did not have the retraining screw or the filed breech balls. Thanks for joining AHFCA.

Beautiful gun Researcher. And yes, that is the pattern on the one at Julias. Thanks Researcher

Thanks Admin!

Best,

Mike

Mike, welcome to the group. I have to tell you I just signed on and your post and pics knocked my socks off! I can't add anything to what's already been said by the others more knowlegeable than me on XE's. Regarding the chokes, the conical/parallel configuration is typical for Fox guns that are not full or XF and yours will probably do something like 65% patterns, Imp Mod performance. I'm extrapolating based on patterning I've done with 16 gauge Foxes over the years. The only thing that's curious to me is the minimum wall thickness you mentioned, .045", that seems pretty thick if you're measuring at the smallest O.D. of the barrels. Are you measuring there or at a fixed distance ahead of the breech as per British convention?

PS, you can remove pics by going to the edit function and deleting the ones you want to remove. That's just for info for future posts; I wouldn't want you to get rid of any of those that knocked my socks off. Congrats on your XE and welcome again. Frank

Thanks Frank.

I have a gage marked "Truth Tools" and I measured from the muzzles to about 15" into the barrel on the bottom, side, and top. I am sure if I had done four more at 45% I would have found some thinner spot but I wouldn't think much thinner.. I also thought they were thick. The balance point is 5-5/8" in front of the front trigger. The barrels weigh 2lbs 14oz.

Of course I only bought the gun, the credit belongs to those Fox gunmakers now long gone.


Thanks again,

Mike

Mike, usually Fox barrels are thinnest about 8-10" back from the muzzle and I wouldn't be surprised if yours were .025-.030" thick in that area. That is pretty typical for unmolested barrels. The barrel weight is about what you might expect from 4-weight tubes, assuming of course that the original customer didn't order a special barrel weight or gun balance. I don't remember if you mentioned it but I would certainly recommend you get a JC letter on that dynamite XE. Frank

The "Truth Tool" which Mike uses is a wall thickness gauge--and it's very accurate. The barrels are as he said, "thick". The gun is very nice and hasn't been fiddled with, which is quite unusual.

I weighed the longest set of 16 gauge Fox barrels I have right now, 28" = 3 pounds, 4 ounces. They aren't "weight" stamped but seem to have typical 28" handling characteristics, not too heavy nor too whippy. Mike's 30" barrels weigh 2 pounds 14 ounces. That's 2" more barrel and 6 ounces less. Unless I'm totally goofed up these stats would seem to show that your 16 XE has relatively light "weight" barrels, probably the so-called 4-weight.

Regarding the wall thickness, it certainly depends where you measure but if you did a full circumference scan from the muzzle to about 15" back from the muzzle, you surely would have measured the area where barrels are the thinnest. Personally I've never measured a conventional Fox barrel that had a minimum wall thickness of anything approaching .045" in a lighter "weight" barrel. I guess you can learn something new every day.

I would definitely like to see your gun if you ever bring it east, to the Vintage Cup, etc. Frank

Hi Frank:

Here is a picture of the gauge:



You put your thumb through the hole and hang the gauge end on the barrels like this:


You zero the gauge while it is hanging from the barrel end. Do not torque the handle, just left it hang on your thumb.

Then you insert in the barrel watching the wall thicknesses as you slide it in:


After you measure in about 15" you rotate the barrels. I just measured the top, side, and bottom of the barrel. You can easily measure at 45 degrees to those three runs.

Probably clear as mud but anyway thats how it works. I took the pictures while I was holding the gauge in one hand and the camera in the other so please excuse the poor quaility.

Best,

Mike

Mike, the Truth Tool looks pretty neat. Obviously it will do 16 gauge and larger. How about 20 and smaller? I've also seen the type that have vertical rods from a base plate that sits on the floor or a table. Tony G. sells them. I use a lathe and a mandrel that has a button on its end, the dial indicator is on the toolpost. Once burned, twice shy when it comes to wall thickness. Frank

A.M. ....you probably wouldnt want to keep a gun like that.... you should probably call me..........Marshfellow.......hhhhmmmm

Frank it comes with another head that I am sure will do 20 gauge as it comes with a 0.600" calibration ring. I don't know if it will go down to 0.510" though.

The first one I saw belongs to Joe Wood. He carried it to a gunshow we went to and now I couldn't stand to buy a gun without measuring the wall thicknesses.

Thanks Marshfellow - will PM you for your FFL.

Best,

Mike