Fox Collectors

New to forum, but have been collecting foxes for years. I usually acquire guns at small local public auctions. About six months ago a local auction house had a fox single barrel tap gun, grade L, listed in an upcoming auction catalogue. I was like a kid waiting for Christmas, and finally on sale day i got to inspect the gun. I was baffled, the gun looked like a fox and was marked fox, but the wood checkering and metal engraving pattern did not match any of the sbt grades. The big issue was that the gun was stamped with serial number 500000, which do es not fall within the sbt block. Mr. Mcintosh also specifically mentions number 500000 being assigned to a double gun marked "exhibition" and built for Wilfred Wright. I did not bid on the gun which sold for over $3000, i was dumbfounded. Anyone here know anymore about this gun?

I believe that was an early experimental gun. It was for sale some time back ny Albright's in Easton, Maryland.

Thanks Dave, thats a new one for me.

tjw

Thanks for the info and pics, I think this was the same gun, but can't make out the serial number in the pictures. Guess its one of those fox oddities that the same number was used again on another gun. Makes me wonder if i made a mistake passing on the opportunity to own the gun.

Interesting gun. Besides the engraving which is hardly L Grade.... a few things I noticed: no trigger plate screw, no lever release latch, looks like it has replacable wear inserts on the breech tabs for the crossbolt. Also no Fox or Savage Proof mark unless I missed it.

Rib posts look rectangular, more like the rare 1930's Fox "Trap Grade" double-trap guns, than the round posts for the regular SBT sliding vent rib.

Yeah I suppose it may be experimental but I have copies of Fox blueprints dated 1914 (5 years before the SBT was introduced) that are production shop, ready to make quality. This gun looks to have less bells & whistles, and given the rectangular rib posts, I wonder if it's a "later" Savage-era experimental SBT gun? Silvers

As I remember that rib is a Simmons replacement of the original rib, similar to the K-Grade pictured on pages 56 and 57 in Conley's book, The American Single Barrel Trap Gun.

The gun had some issues that made it less than suitable for use. I am willing to agree with Frank that it may be a Savage effort rather than a pre production prototype from 1914 or close to that. Where was the gun placed at auction? I never did find out who bought the gun from Albright's. It was priced for the masses as I recall.

Gun was sold at PA Auction center, Lancaster county, by an Amish auctioneer October of 2011. Did not get auction price correct in first post, must have been thinking of another gun. Checked my records, and sale price was actually $1900 at a no buyers premium auction. Between the odd serial #, checkering,and engraving along with the fact that the gun felt loose and i wasn't sure what it was, i refrained from placing a bid.

I guess we'll have to disagree. I don't see anything Utica/Savage about that gun.

The one thing Savage did do to a few of the very last Fox single barrel traps was profile the top of the receiver and breech end of the barrel on each side with a concave groove, kind of like the breechball profiling on many of the XE-grade and higher doubles. The very last SBT, 400568, has this profiling feature, but I own 400543 and it doesn't have it. This feature is discused in the Savage "Announcing the new FOX Trap Guns" brochure. They state in the brochure "The frame of the new Fox Single Barrel Trap Gun has been redesigned to a form which extends the top rib line back across the frame to the shooter's eyes, insuring perfect alignment in sighting." This feature isn't mentioned in the FOX single barrel trap gun ads Savage ran in the June, July and September 1930 issues of The American Rifleman.

The more I look at the pics the more I see. No frame rebates on this gun. Also the back end/top of the barrel breech is machined way differently than the regular setup for the transition into the floating rib. Striations in the rib seem to be done with a horizontal mill cutter as compared with the regular chatter-type tooling. All this and earlier observations posted here, translate to lesser machine time and handwork = less cost, at least it seems so to this former mfg. manager.

Here's a part of the AHFGC's drawing # D285 dated 8/31/1914. That was about 5 years before the intro of the Fox SBT. Design seems to have been finalized at that date... you can see the cut in the frame for the lever release latch, also the blind/threaded hole for the trigger plate screw. Both of which don't appear on the gun cited here. Silvers

There are straight striations on the rib because it is a Simmons replacement rib, with Simmons oval posts down the barrel and a Simmons "Glow Worm" front sight.

Yep Dave I see your point on the Simmons type rib striations. Now, if I were having Simmons put a rib on a Fox SBT I think I'd ask them to transition to the new rib where the original Fox rib started (inside the red circles on this pic), rather than having them mill thru all that stippling on the top of the barrel, to start the rib at its very back end. Seems a lot less "intrusive".

Frank, the fact is that it didn't happen that way. End of story. Most people that sent good guns to Simmons couldn't spell "Fox". Let's get back to trying to figure this gun out.

Your idea makes sense, but for some reason Simmons mills that whole area away and mills a groove for their rib all the way to the breech. See the K-Grade in Conley's book. The bridge abutment is much shorter on that gun than on a gun with the original Godshalk rib. While there certainly aren't a lot of Fox SBTs out there for a sample, over the years I've seen quite a few with Simmons ribs. Kind of indicates to me that there were some "issues" with Clarence Godshalk's rib. Note this 500000 gun doesn't have that bridge abutment start for the rib as "normal" 400000 serial number SBTs do. Hmm...